[ Pobierz całość w formacie PDF ]
.Isn't there another experience? Not my meeting XY Z, but the feeling 'I am', which is not because I meet desiresomewhere, or because I confronted desire somewhere else.I don'teven go and ask a doctor or somebody to certify that 'I am'.Butthere is this feeling, there is this knowledge, 'I am'.This experienceseems to be totally different from objective experience.Krishnaji: Sir, what is the purpose of experience? Swamiji: Exactly what you have been saying: to get rid of thefears, and get rid of all the complexes, all the conditioning.To seewhat I am, in truth, when I am not conditioned.Krishnaji: No, sir.I mean: I am dull.Swamiji: Am I dull?Krishnaji: I am dull; and because I see you, or X Y Z, who isvery clever, very bright, very intelligent.Swamiji:.there is comparison.Krishnaji: Comparison: through comparing, I find myself that Iam very dull.And I say, "Yes, I am dull, what am I to do?", andjust remain in my dullness.Life comes along, an incident takesplace, which shakes me up.I wake up for a moment and struggle,struggle not to be dull, to be a little more intelligent, and so on.Soexperience generally has the significance of waking you up, givingyou a challenge to which you have to respond.Either you respondto it adequately, or inadequately.If it is inadequate, the responsethen becomes a medium of pain, struggle, fight, quarrel, you know.But if you respond to it adequately, that is fully, you are thechallenge.You are the challenge, not the challenged, but you arethat.Therefore you need no challenge at all, if you are adequatelyresponding all the time to everything.Swamiji: That is beautiful, but (laughing) how does one getthere?Krishnaji: Ah, wait, sir.Just let us see the need for experience atall.I think this is really extraordinary, if you can go into it.Why dohuman beings demand not only objective experience, which onecan understand - in going to the moon they have collected a lot ofinformation, a lot of data, a lot of. Swamiji:.rocks.Krishnaji: That kind of experience is perhaps necessary,because it furthers knowledge, knowledge of factual, objectivethings.Now apart from that kind of experience, is there anynecessity for experience at all?Swamiji: Subjectively?Krishnaji: Yes.I don't like to use 'subjective' and 'objective'.Isthere the need of experience at all? We have said: experience is theresponse to a challenge.I challenge you, I ask, 'Why?' You mayrespond to it, and say, "Yes, perfectly right, I am with you." Why?But the moment there is any kind of resistance to that question,'Why?', you are already responding inadequately.And thereforethere is conflict between us, between the challenge and theresponse.Now, that's one thing.Now there is a desire toexperience, let's say god, something supreme, the highest - thehighest happiness, the highest ecstasy, bliss, a sense of peace,whatever you like.Can the mind experience it at all?Swamiji: No.Krishnaji: Then what does experience it?Swamiji: Do you want us to enquire what the mind is?Krishnaji: No.Swamiji: What the 'I' is?Krishnaji: No! Why does the 'I', me or you, or they or we,demand experience? - that is my point - demand the experience ofthe highest, which promises happiness, or ecstasy, bliss or peace?Swamiji: Obviously because in the present state we feelinadequate.Krishnaji: That's all.That's all. Swamiji: Correct.Krishnaji: Being in a state in which there is no peace, we wantto experience a state which is absolute, permanent, eternal peace.Swamiji: It is not so much that I am restless, and there is a stateof peace; I want to know what is this feeling, "I am restless".Is the'I' restless, or is the 'I' dull? Am I dull, or is dullness only acondition which I can shake off?Krishnaji: Now who is the entity that shakes it off?Swamiji: Wakes up.The 'I' wakes up.Krishnaji: No, sir.That's the difficulty.Let's finish this first.Iam unhappy, miserable, laden with sorrow.And I want toexperience something which has no sorrow.That is my craving.Ihave an ideal, a principle, an end, which by struggling towards it Iwill ultimately get that.That's my craving.I want to experiencethat and hold on to that experience.That is what human beingswant - apart from all the clever sayings, clever coverings.Swamiji: Yes, yes; and that is perhaps the reason why anothervery great South Indian sage said: Asai Arumin Asai AruminIsanodayinum Asai Arumin.It's very good really.Krishnaji: What's that?Swamiji: He said, "Cut down all these cravings.Even thecraving to be one with god, cut it down", he says.Krishnaji: Yes, I understand.Now wait a minute.If I, if themind can free itself from this agony, then what is the need ofasking for an experience of the supreme? There won't be.Swamiji: No.Certainly.Krishnaji: It is no longer caught in its own conditioning.Therefore it is something else; it is living in a different dimension. Therefore the desire to experience the highest is essentially wrong.Swamiji: If it is a desire.Krishnaji: Whatever it is! How do I know the highest? Becausethe sages have talked of it? I don't accept the sages.They might becaught in illusion, they might be talking nonsense or sense.I don'tknow; I am not interested.I find that as long as the mind is in astate of fear, it wants to escape from it, and it projects an idea ofthe supreme, and wants to experience that.But if it frees itself fromits own agony, then it is altogether in a different state.It doesn'teven ask for the experience because it is at a different level.Swamiji: Quite, quite.Krishnaji: Now, why do the sages, according to what you havesaid, say, "You must experience that, you must be that, you mustrealize that"?Swamiji: They didn't say, "You must".Krishnaji: Put it any way you like.Why should they say allthese things? Would it not be better to say, "Look here, my friends,get rid of your fear.Get rid of your beastly antagonism, get rid ofyour childishness, and when you have done that."Swamiji:.nothing more remains.Krishnaji: Nothing more.You'll find out the beauty of it.Youdon't have to ask, then.Swamiji: Fantastic, fantastic!Krishnaji: You see, sir, the other way is such a hypocriticalstate; it leads to hypocrisy.I am seeking God, but I am all the timekicking people.(Laughs)Swamiji: Yes, that could be hypocrisy.Krishnaji: It is, it is. Swamiji: That leads me on to the last and perhaps veryimpertinent question.Krishnaji: No, sir, there is no impertinence.Swamiji: I am neither flattering you, nor insulting you,Krishnaji, when I say that it is a great experience to sit near youand talk to you like this.Your message is great, and you have beentalking for over forty years of things you have considered veryimportant to man.Now three questions.Do you think a man cancommunicate it to another man? Question number one.Do youthink that others can communicate it to still others? If so, how?Krishnaji: Communicate what, sir?Swamiji: This message, that you have dedicated your life to.What would you call it? You may call it message.Krishnaji: Yes, call it what you like, it doesn't matter.Am I, theperson who is speaking, is he conveying a message, telling you amessage?Swamiji: No.You may call it an awakening, a questioning.Krishnaji: No, no.I am asking, sir.Just look at it.Swamiji: I guess we feel so, the listeners
[ Pobierz całość w formacie PDF ]